By Avatar JayR Cela :
On April 27 we had a visit from the Zeta Worlds grid team, this is what they were offering.
David7 Bravin: OKay - it looks like everyone is here that's coming...... Greetings and welcome Everyone.This is another special Community meeting to continue considering the future of the 3RG Community. We have special visitors here today from ZetaWorlds Grid, who will be giving us a presentation shortly. I would now like to welcome and introduce Vincent.Sylvester and Edison.Rex from ZetaWorlda Grid.Please do not interrupt their presentation and keep any questions to the end - not forgetting to "Raise a Hand" first - and wait to be called. Vincent and Edison - Please go ahead.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: okay, well. I think we can start with the history of Zetaworlds. Zetaworlds is over 11 years old now, We have servers in both North America and Europe. Our grid runs on Opensim software based on core, but modified.
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It originally started just as a way for testing things, not really doing much headway in community. It evolved over the years into what it is now.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: We've had a free land programme for years now, and we also allow self hosting. I'll let Vincent tak about our approach to grid management.
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds: These days the focus is on stability and being a good neighbor in the wider community. I highly value education and try to provide a lot of information both technical and in terms of how we approach the metaverse
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: if you've seen our website you can see how we build on what is there.
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As it evolved out of a testing platform for new features the aim was always to bring movement into OpenSim itself so over the years we have worked to build a working relationship with the core team
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: we were early adopters of ubODE physics, for example
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In terms of community though I leave most of those things to Ed and Kelly here, with a mostly hands-off approach as the saying goes live and let live. It's my goal to allow communities to build how they would like to build and not interfere much unless I have to
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: as to that, the terms of service guides that
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: For going on 15 years now I have been on and off running communities and engaging with OpenSim, which is what has led to that approach as I think there is much value in providing an open platform like we have. That said I suspect there are some that have heard about some of the policies implemented on our end. The restrictions we put in place to some degree. They are the result of the aforementioned wish to educate on good practices and equally as measure to protect our end. I'm aware that does feel strong handed in some regard, but it is a difficult thing for us to work out. Trying to prevent detrimental effects and staying as open as possible. There is a lot of potential and good in OpenSim and that's worth protecting and fostering, but it needs information. It sounds cliche but knowledge does make a big difference in that regard and over the years it has shown us that it goes such a long way to create a community that critically thinks about problems and seeks solutions that work for everyone. Nobody is perfect and both Ed and Kelly have shown me that there is always things to work on and think about, constant flux if you will. That is why it strikes me very much when I heard about what happened to you. It was almost like a constant that I had relied on suddenly went away. I did send Ed out to see what was needed at first. It was surprising to me to see you reaching out to us, but from the conversations I have had so far it seems that I probably should not have been. While things never align perfectly I do agree that there is quite a bit of overlap in the approach to things, but the extent only time will tell, though I hope regardless of the decisions made that you all find a home your are comfortable with no matter where.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: and with that, we're open to questions.
David7 Bravin: Many thanks for that presentation Vincent and Edison - very interesting......
Are there any questions ?
JayR Cela: I see that your grid is using ubODE physics engine Grid Wide ?
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: yes, we moved to ubODE early on
JayR Cela: have you been able to resolve the many problems that seem to be associated with using the ubODE physics engine and Mesh Building structures ?
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: that's all down to physics hulls.
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Outside of specific needs that is the default. While Bullet is still available it isn't maintained in core it is still there. It is meant to get updates according to misterblue, but they have not materialized yet.
JayR Cela: your website says open water and land and air travel are possible or is this a standard feature ?
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: we have a very large series of regions contiguously joined set up as ocean, and by very large, well over 20 miles each direction last I saw.
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's part of the policies specific to the Ocean project that Ed maintains yes, it's meant to make sure you don't hit banlines, but of course if there is a need for privacy that isn't set in stone either. The regions themselves are all open though for any vehicles
David7 Bravin: Thanks
Jedburgh Dagger: Can you tell me about your server backup plan, and include how often you verify those are good and working?
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: over to Vincent for this comment:
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Every 8 hours a auto backup is made, those are moved daily to a backup location and replicated to an offsite storage as well. They are the basic asset-less oars from the auto backup module. Full database backups of all regions are made daily as well. Manual full oars can be issued via the website for anyone that owns a region. From time to time OpenSim hiccups do result in rolling back stuff, so far that has not failed.
David7 Bravin: Are there any more questions ?
Dolfke Barbosa: on your Website I read, the creation of alternate accounts is discouraged. Creating more than 3 accounts is prohibited and will result in suspension of some or all accounts. For Starfleet we have many ships, and every ship has his own crew, read: alts ..., can that be arranged ?
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: TL;DR, yes
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some of the education customers we have create a lot of accounts for their students so if there is good reason for more accounts to exist that is generally not a problem. The rule mainly exists for those that utilize them for less than nice purposes. The policy is aimed toward abusers.
Dolfke Barbosa: Understood, a second question, are ppl from a dreamworldgrid welcome to your grid, via HG ?
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This goes toward the restrictions I mentioned. A problem that isn't well understood in the metaverse surrounding how OpenSim handles hypergrid data. We found a lot of these installations pop up and create data endpoints that then disappear overnight, which causes OpenSim to fish in the dark trying and locking up its pipes to reach them. The detrimental effects can go as far as preventing teleports to regions in extreme cases. Similarly you have issues with DNS caching not following TTL times and such. It's caused us to restrict access to certain known dynamic dns providers as they failed to update in time.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: if you've got friends lists and group lists which you can't remove yourself from, because that grid is gone, or assets with missing parts.
Georgina Mills: So if I turn off the grid at night it creates a new connection that's different?
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The other thing that goes into this is a legal one. As these setups are open from the start they allow new registrations, which can be used to evade bans or create other havoc. By default they don't provide any way to contact the owners of them or even list who they are. Trying to then resolve problems becomes ten times more difficult and it worries me greatly to whether the operates understand the risks and liabilities of running their grids. We restrict those with a link to more information about those things to try and resolve these. Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: On windows famously DNS ttl times are just completely ignored. It caches the ip for a domain until you reboot, which can lead to all sorts of funky things. The problem is that if OpenSim cannot connect to an endpoint it keeps trying for 30 seconds and there is only so many spots in the queue for those requests to get stuck in. After a while it just breaks down and kills the http connection, which can lock you out of a region in the worst case. In many cases things like friends, creator data of prims and other stuff can cause these issues and leaving these endpoints around not understanding the gravity of what it might cause. Sure they can be cleaned up on our end, but that's time and effort and it is hard to track where it might be needed.
Ellemir Maven: Sorry, I just want to follow that for a moment. Because although we got a big long answer, I am not sure if it was a No. I think it was (more) As far as I know there are two kinds of Dreamgrid. One is a home computer behind a dynamic DNS that might get turned on when someone feels like it. Those are typically outworldz.com systems I think The second kind is actual servers, with actual domain namwes that are on the Internet 24 x 7, with Dreamgrid just used as a nice graphical interface to OpenSim. Does your answer apply to both kinds? And confirm the answer is no? And then I have my real question.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: again, Vincent will write something, be patient ;)
Ellemir Maven: Of course. Edison I think you can answer my question though. I know the import IAR and OAR are manual (open a ticket). Can people backup their region to an OAR on their own or is that a ticket request ?
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When a grid pops up we check their website and see what we are dealing with. If it is dynamic dns then yes those do get blocked and usually stay that way unless it becomes clear they maintain a high availability, which is what the known grids page we have is partly for as well. In terms of new grids that don't use dynamic dns it comes down to their terms of service, if they have at least an email address to contact them under in case there is something we need to let them know. If that's not the case they get blocked, which often results in them contacting us to resolve it. I'd say in 75% of cases they understand the reasoning and supply that information
Ellemir Maven: Thank you. So the answer to Georgina's question, for the part time grids, is NO they can not HG to Zeta.
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: OARs can be requested via the web panel directly, that does not involve a ticket. If an IAR is needed, that's done on ticket request.
Ellemir Maven: and thank you Vincent. People can backup their region any time they want.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: Correct, we encourage people to do that.
David7 Bravin: Georgina - do you still have a question?
Georgina Mills: Same domain name and fixed IP from my ISP but outworldz domain is banned anyway, I can use an avatar from another grid and join Zetaworlds ?
Lannorra Sion: I am not very technical and your answers to this dreamgrid thing is perplexing for me. It seems that you are saying you ban first, then if someone contacts you, you MAY allow them, is that right? and i have follow up.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: Vincent will answer this, be patient.
Kelly4u.Lynn @hg.zetaworlds.com: May I say something to this?
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: please do Kelly
Kelly4u.Lynn @hg.zetaworlds.com: The word Ban is incorrect, they get a blocked message, If they read the pop up it directs them to the issue, Then they can fix it.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: We always deal with anybody who is willing to work with us
Lannorra Sion: What is the issue, that they can fix ?
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: Our website lists them
Kelly4u.Lynn @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most times basic web site info
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: any basic contact info
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When they appear as new in the tracked list then we check what their setup is. In most cases with these setups they provide no contact information and within a day the amount of time online vs offline rarely exceeds 50% so to prevent us having to clear tons of dead endpoints from friends entries, creator data etc. then a restriction is put in place that informs them as to why they are being blocked. The problem we face is we don't want to just blankly remove anyone, but without contact information there is no way to let them know about the potential issues it can cause.
Sunbeam Magic: I have 2 questions: 1) what currency systems does Zeta use 2) how many regions per server are alloted ? and comment follow up on how many avatars one can have, do we need to write someone to get permission for more than 3 (on AAcme City I use 4, 2 are my husband's who passed away a year ago... ) each have different textures and items needed to maintain and such Thank you.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: We use Gloebits, that's our currency. We maintain a direct relationship with Chris Colosi. Vincent can answer 2, and on 3, you would speak with us. As we said the policy is aimed at abusers.
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I track the server performance and if there is enough capacity left regions get deployed on them, if they are full new server or another one it is. Usually try to keep at least 30% headroom on them.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: we have existing roleplay groups, they've spoken with us and we allow multiple alts for that purpose. What we don't like is someone who is a pest, making alts and being more of a pest. We've crossed paths with some real characters.
Sunbeam Magic: AAcme City is not a Role Play city.
Kelly4u.Lynn @hg.zetaworlds.com: I watch for and check alts. If for RP I dont need to watch them, If they seek free land or other options I do
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: we do not allow alts to take free land if the original has free land, for instance, that's cheating.
Jedburgh Dagger: What are their policies on copybotted items brought in from other grids?
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: define copybotted, first without a takedown notice from a real creator we wouldn't know.
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: What you do on your region is your thing. I don't play content policy. If we receive valid takedown requests for content they are investigated and acted upon accordingly. That's the legal requirement we have based on the jurisdiction, but I see regions as private property like any rented apartment so I don't go barge in unless there is good reason for it.
Han BoShi: Back to the locked accounts for DreamWorld grids, I suspect the white listing is then by grid, once one person goes through the process anyone else on that same grid is fine.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: Han is correct for that grid
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes. If we can see that a conscious effort is made to understand the implications of grid operation and the hypergrid then there is no reason to restrict them
Ellemir Maven: Someone (I think Sunbeam) was asking about regions per server. Three of the four grids we have had present, have offered an option where we would get a dedicated server, just for our community. In the case of Zeta, that server would accommodate up to 32 regions.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: in our original conversations we discussed that, our answers here in this meeting are more general.
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Up to and starting at being the key words there. Depending on the scale you need there are different options. Also not out of the option to change hardware if it ends up being too small or not suited well. It's hard to nail that down to numbers when you can have 100 empty regions that use barely any resources or two regions require a whole server in themselves.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: depends on how much land impact, how many scripts and how many people, how much area too.
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did look at some options that would work and their prices already, would help to have information on how many regions you have now and what resources they consume on the machines they sit on.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: for example we have 120 simulators running the ocean, each with 4 4x4s. but that's kind of extreme, it's not overloaded though. I hope this was helpful. I meant to say to JayR Cela, we can accommodate a Bullet region on its own, although moving scripts is kind of my personal project.
JayR Cela: I have 3 questions please..... 1. Do you offer an in world voice solution(s)? 2. Were you recently affected by the infamous grief-er Priscilla and if so how was this situation dealt with ? 3. Can a region owner move their region to another place on the world map ?
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: ah yes, what to do post-vivox, hehe, Vincent will take number 2 and 3. yes. you have to put in a ticket. Priscilla was an interesting one to defeat. I'll let Vincent explain.
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh heh that one is funny. We had some fun with that on one of the estate regions, though that's easy to deal with just deleting their objects via console. It amused me greatly, reminds me of the old SL days. Just not leaving rezz rights on is all you need to combat that, though course did ban them as well
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: for 1. we're all working to find a good inworld successor to Vivox
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I gave Ed a number of different ban hammers to play with if they want to be crafty.
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: and I spend a lot of time tracking those kinds of miscreants
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A new voice in SL is already being tested, when that comes to OpenSim remains to be seen. I been working with core to try and find a way to implement it, but webrtc is a big beast to tackle and we don't yet have a full understanding of the protocol. I suspect that will take some time to resolve and not be as easy as vivox was, though it should offer much better quality. It's been discussed on mantis quite a bit and we are aware that a solution is needed now that SL is pushing it :)
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: we would be likely to adopt it early though.
Lorin Tone: OK, it was more a comment on the Vivox issue or lack thereof. As an inworld sounds guy, I've been keeping up on that topic and a number of potential fixes are in the works, can be in touch all around on that. end
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: thank you
Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Vivox should still work, we don't blankly offer that. In the past we just set the registration details up when those that wanted it registered. So if you still have those we can put them in.
Alia Soulstar: First I’d like to thank Vincent, Ed and Kelly for taking the time to speak to us and answer our questions , very kind of you, thank you, you three…
Edison.Rex @hg.zetaworlds.com: you're welcome!
Alia Soulstar: And to say that I have a full summary of Zeta’s offer to us and how we would look to work with it, plus those of the other grids we heard from, when I say full, 27 pages of information and analysis, some of which is subtle, so plenty to digest. And as Zeta is the last grid to present we are in a position to move after this meeting to discuss and come to a decision. We should make that decision within a few days. And I think it would be prudent to have another meeting this weekend, perhaps tomorrow if that can be arranged as we will all be better informed.
David7 Bravin: THanks Alia, Vincent and Edison - Thanks again for your presentation and answering our questions (including Kelly) .......... On behalf of everyone here, please accept our thanks for coming here today - much appreciated.
Story to continue in : My Virtual Life after 3rd Rock Grid's Closure : Part 6
JayR Cela :_)
